What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[robroy]

Hey Robert, Fordman and George, thanks for replying!

I'm just hesitant to remove the bearings because I have no idea how to, nor how much effort is involved.  I'm guessing I'd have to completely pull the engine from the truck to do this also, right?  

I think you could do it in the truck.

That's interesting then.  I'll think about this!  

I do not disagree with this advice it is good advice, the thing is there is a good bit involved particularly if you've never done it and you would have to be very careful.

I'm good at being careful, but perhaps not good enough to make up for complete inexperience!  And it's a little tricky to work upside down under the truck with the crossmember between the engine and my hands.  

I'm assuming that you have a torque wrench?

That I do!  

You would need plastigauge... most parts stores would have that.

Interesting--I've never heard of this, but I'll check it out.  If not for now, for another adventure down the road!  

If you are going to give it a shot, I would say call the builder and see what brand bearings it has in it, if they recorded the sizes and what their recommended torque specs and procedure are. That way you can have replacements on hand. This would also give you a chance to replace that main bolt (ARP makes them in sets).

Okay, I'll give Steve a call if I decide to go this route!  

The other question is if you do find metal there, what then, do you  then pull the motor and tear replace the cam bearings too?

Good point!  

If it is something you are interested in trying we'll be glad to help, I'm confident you can do it but I would set aside a full day.

Thank you very much Robert!  I probably won't go this route, but I'll think it over a little before attacking it.  

if its metal it isnt a valve seal. the valve seal is rubber

Oh okay, thanks for letting me know!  Yup this is metal for sure.  

Have you cut your oil filter open yet?

Nope, not yet, but that's something I absolutely must do!

The method I have used to cut them open and not get metal shaveings inside (or very few) is to drill a 1/4" hole and wipe the shavings away before you pull out the drill bit. Then use metal snips to cut around the filter. Be careful that metal is really sharp!

That's a smart method that probably wouldn't have occurred to me, thank you!  Perhaps instead of the drill, I'll try hitting it with a chisel, then following up with the snips.  If I'm able to do that carefully enough, perhaps I could avoid adding any metal shavings to its guts.  

Robert, Fordman and George, thanks again for replying!  
Robroy

[robroy]

Today Valley Fabrication in Salinas added a second drain plug to my pan!  They did it in about an hour and charged $43.61.

See it there, on the front corner?


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4358z.JPG

They used a big nut instead of making a piece of threaded pipe, so it doesn't look exactly like the Milodon one, but that was OK with me.  They offered to make it look exactly like the Milodon one for an extra $20 or $30, but I didn't think it mattered.  


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4357z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4362z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4360z.JPG

The inside didn't turn out quite as pretty as the outside, but I think it will be OK.  I was a little concerned about the irregular surface catching bits of metal while the oil's being drained.  Do you think it matters much?  


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4364.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4365.JPG

Here's how it will look, sticking down at that angle, when installed on the engine.


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4367z.JPG

Here's the factory drain plug, for reference.



And here's the drain plug I'll be using.  That magnet on the end is STRONG.



Since the new drain isn't at the lowest point in the pan, I'll have to change my oil with the truck on a hill if I want to get it all out.  That doesn't bother me as much as oil splashing all over the crossmember!  

Thanks very much for the valuable guidance, and stay tuned for more updates!
Robroy

[robroy]

I'd either use diesel oil or a zinc/moly additive

Hey Robert!  At the auto parts today I looked for a zinc/moly additive but didn't see it.  Does this type of additive typically come right out and say "Moly" somewhere on the bottle?  

Since I figured I could use it anyways (on another vehicle), I picked this additive up.  Is this an equivalent product to what you were recommending, by any chance?


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4368z.JPG

Thanks very much Robert!!!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

The drain plug setup looks good.  The copper washers can be a pain and leak at times.  Just don't overtighten them.

Where are the new valve cover pics?  Spent all day waiting and it's about bed time here on the East coast...
Jamie

[robroy]

The new Melling M-57HV arrived today, but I haven't cracked the cover off yet to compare it with my trashed one!


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4371z.JPG



Looks familiar!


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4373z.JPG

Look at this funny warning!  Why in the world would they want me to check clearances, after all?  I should be able to slap everything together and trust that the parts were made to fit together perfectly, right?  (Just kidding!)  It's funny how loudly this slip of paper speaks to me now, after this experience!  



The Melling came with gaskets, thank goodness.  NAPA said they could get me the pump mounting gasket, but it would cost $10 and take days to arrive!


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4375z.JPG

You can see how the oil pump mounting gasket isn't a perfect fit; it blocks part of the opening.  I should trim this to fit perfectly, right?


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4377z.JPG http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4376z.JPG

Thanks very much!!!
Robroy

[robroy]

Hey Jamie thanks for replying!

The drain plug setup looks good.  The copper washers can be a pain and leak at times.  Just don't overtighten them.

Got it, I'll watch out for that!

Where are the new valve cover pics?  Spent all day waiting and it's about bed time here on the East coast...

Sorry for the delay!  I'll run out there right now and pull it off for some photos, but by the time I post them it might be too late for tonight.  EDIT:  I am wanted at the dinner table so must post tomorrow instead (thanks for being so patient)!

Thanks for the outstanding help!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I don't think the Lucas has Zinc in it?

Here is one source:

http://www.compcams.com/information/wha ... 5d_web.pdf

GM EOS (engine oil supplement) used to be a good source as well, but rumor is it has been changed.

Valvoline Racing oil is also a good source.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consu ... motor-oil/

More information:

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

The moly is usually called "cam break in lube" or something similar...

[robroy]

Hey Robert thanks very much for that oil additive information!  I'll track down a product like these that I can use during the first runs.  

As for whether or not the Lucas has "Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP," I'll have to look in to it; it doesn't say on the bottle.  

Yet another thing that I would have been completely clueless about without my Fordification mentors!!!

I pulled the driver's side valve cover, and it looked similar to the passenger's side.  

If I wiped a paper towel in a recessed area (an oil puddle), it came up with numerous tiny, silver specks in it.  But the specs were so tiny that I couldn't even photograph them.  And wiping down most of the oily surfaces in there yielded nothing but clean oil--only the puddles had some junk in them.  

I did find four metal flakes in there.  I'm not sure if they came from the windage tray or not!  None were as large as Moby-Dick.  


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4413z.JPG

Here's a close-up of the largest of the batch:



And the inside of the driver's side valve cover.  The same brushed area is there, so I'm guessing that's a factory thing for these covers.


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4387z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4388z.JPG

Notice the funny marks on the rocker arms here too!  


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4391z.JPG



A good shot of the head from above:


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4405z.JPG

I can never remember how to increase my depth of field.  Open aperture and increase shutter speed or close aperture and decrease shutter speed?  Maybe that's beyond the scope of this book (or thread).


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4408z.JPG

Photos of the general area, just for fun.


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4390.JPG



The oil filter guts come next!

Thanks for the super generous and excellent advice!!!
Robroy

[70_F100]

Are those specks of metal on that rocker arm nut?

[DuckRyder]

Robroy,

If there are any oil puddles left, dip a finger in them and rub your fingers together... do you feel grit?

[Ranchero50]

Robroy, at this point I would suggest pulling the motor and putting it on a stand so you can clean it thoroughly while rolling it over.  Like '70 says, it looks like metal flakes all through the oil in the rocker arm closeup (what's the shiny bits on the spring retainer? air bubbles or...).  Either way you shouldn't be finding chunks of metal in a fresh engine, even boring and hone work doesn't make chunks, just fine grit.

Also for future reference, pull the truck into a garage nose first.  That way the exhaust is blowing outside and you can back the truck outside halfway to work on it.  And when you lift the motor to remove you just push the truck out from uder it.

Seriously, as 70 said, stick a fork in it, it's done and needs to come back out, complete flush, bearings checked, etc.  Far higher quality work when it's done on a stand.  You'll be able to see that the bearings seat correctly etc and stuff won't be falling on your head and in your eyes while doing the work.

Jamie

[robroy]

Good morning!!!

I'll respond to each of your great replies in a few hours.  I just wanted to say that I've been convinced.  I am pulling the engine, putting it on a stand, and doing it right!!!  I don't want to grind up something I paid nearly $9,000 for!  And having you guys here to guide me is too good of an opportunity for me to pass up.

Thank you all so much!  You are #50's saviors!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

After firing up the big computer and having a look I tend to agree.

Finding more large pieces up there is concerning, they didn't get pumped up there so the question becomes where did they come from? Could be from bad clean up prior to the build or something broke.

I'm still baffled by the marks on the rockers...

I think it is time to bite the bullet, buy Steve Crist's book, collect phone numbers and pull it back out. Even if you don't want to tackle it, check with some local machine shops and see if they would be willing to do it, it should only be labor and perhaps a set of bearings.

I don't know if you have a way to haul it, but there is a guy in Sacramento that specializes in FE's

http://www.fespecialties.com/HTML/AboutFES.html

Looks like that is roughly 3 hours from you. You could give him a call or E-Mail and throw yourself on his mercy...  

Finally, you could post up an ad on the FE forum for someone to help who is nearby, there are a lot of those guy in CA.

We'll all be glad to help, but I'm getting the feeling you really don't want to tackle this yourself...?

I know this isn't good news, but it would be better (and cheaper) to do it now rather than risk it.

[DuckRyder]

Ah, I see you replied while I typed.

Good morning...

[robroy]

Hey 70_F100, Jamie, and Robert, thanks for replying!

Are those specks of metal on that rocker arm nut?

Yes I think they are!  But you know, the camera flash made them look 10x the size they really are.  I went out there and looked at that area again.  I couldn't see them at all with my naked eye without a flashlight shining right on the area.  

With a flashlight, I could see them, but when I stuck my finger there to transfer a spec to my finger, it vanished in my skin!  So that goes to show just how tiny they are.  

If there are any oil puddles left, dip a finger in them and rub your fingers together... do you feel grit?

I tried this a few times and felt none, but on one try I did feel some grit.  I think those smallest (or medium) flakes of metal I found do feel slightly gritty!

Robroy, at this point I would suggest pulling the motor and putting it on a stand so you can clean it thoroughly while rolling it over.  Like '70 says, it looks like metal flakes all through the oil in the rocker arm closeup (what's the shiny bits on the spring retainer? air bubbles or...).  Either way you shouldn't be finding chunks of metal in a fresh engine, even boring and hone work doesn't make chunks, just fine grit.

Jamie, thanks for your advice on this!  I was curious about that!  In particular, what type of metal flake should I expect to see in a freshly rebuilt engine?  

Steve (engine builder) mentioned that super fine flakes are normal--he said something about the rings breaking in.  

And I noticed a similar statement on one of the oil filter Web sites Robert forwarded to me.  

Also for future reference, pull the truck into a garage nose first.  That way the exhaust is blowing outside and you can back the truck outside halfway to work on it.  And when you lift the motor to remove you just push the truck out from uder it.

It's funny that this didn't occur to me, but you're absolutely right!  I'll turn the truck around before pulling the motor (it's not very difficult to roll it around).  

When running the truck in there before, it really did cloud up in there.  It was nasty!  I stopped and went for some fresh air when my eyes started to sting!  

Seriously, as 70 said, stick a fork in it, it's done and needs to come back out, complete flush, bearings checked, etc.  Far higher quality work when it's done on a stand.  You'll be able to see that the bearings seat correctly etc and stuff won't be falling on your head and in your eyes while doing the work.

I see your point and tend to agree, at this stage.  Frankly I wasn't looking forward to shooting multiple cans of brake cleaner up in to the engine and having it rain down on my hands (or worse).  Of course I'd be wearing gloves, but getting some of that stuff on my skin would be inevitable.  Not to mention totally stripping the frame wherever the brake cleaner got (and I'm sure it would go everywhere).  

After firing up the big computer and having a look I tend to agree.

Finding more large pieces up there is concerning, they didn't get pumped up there so the question becomes where did they come from? Could be from bad clean up prior to the build or something broke.

I see your point!  Not having experience with engines, I'm not sure if these flakes and specs are normal (for a freshly rebuilt engine) or not.  But I guess they're not.

The photos I took with the flash do exaggerate the size of the flecks quite a bit, since they make them light up like Christmas trees.  But they're still there!  

I'm still baffled by the marks on the rockers...

Yeah!  I'll ask Steve about those marks.  

I think it is time to bite the bullet, buy Steve Crist's book, collect phone numbers and pull it back out. Even if you don't want to tackle it, check with some local machine shops and see if they would be willing to do it, it should only be labor and perhaps a set of bearings.

Yeah I see what you mean.  Read a book?  Yikes.  

I don't know if you have a way to haul it, but there is a guy in Sacramento that specializes in FE's

http://www.fespecialties.com/HTML/AboutFES.html

Looks like that is roughly 3 hours from you. You could give him a call or E-Mail and throw yourself on his mercy...  

This is an idea!  I do have a pickup that could haul it just fine, but I would have to construct a cradle for it (which I would be pretty clueless about).  Unfortunately, the pallet that it came on has long since been pulled apart and scrapped.  

Finally, you could post up an ad on the FE forum for someone to help who is nearby, there are a lot of those guy in CA.

This is an idea too!  But if I need to transport the engine, I may as well take to to a real authority.  It sounds like the FE specialties place is supreme.  

We'll all be glad to help, but I'm getting the feeling you really don't want to tackle this yourself...?

Welp, I'd be willing to tackle it myself, but I really don't understand how much specialized knowledge would be required to do so.  I can buy an engine stand, and I have a few torque wrenches and plenty of tools.  I also have a nice garage now to work in, so I won't have to worry about parts getting dirty or rain or anything.  

This said, I have zero machining experience and don't understand engines.  

I'm imagining that I could probably (with lots of guidance) remove bolts and take chucks of the engine apart, and could probably get them back together again.  But when it came to determining the integrity of parts, measuring clearances, or having to press things in and out, I'd be totally clueless.  

I know this isn't good news, but it would be better (and cheaper) to do it now rather than risk it.

It's OK news to me!  

If I were to pull the engine and transmission out, remove the transmission, and bolt the engine to a stand, do you think you guys could guide me through all the remaining steps remotely?  

How much of the job would be a matter of removing bolts and pulling parts out of the engine?  And how much would be a matter of pressing things together, checking tolerances, and other machine work?  I can do the first kind of work.  I'm sorely unqualified to do the second kind.  

I think a good understanding of that would answer the question for me.  If I could do almost all of the work with regular mechanic's tools I already have, I would go for it.  I don't mind spending a week working on it.  Do you think I could flush this thing out and make sure it's healthy in a week?  (Consider this:  it took me about five hours to just get engine lifted up and the oil pan off!)

Thanks again for the truly outstanding advice!
Robroy